Yet Another Knocking Steering Issue

[MrF]

Hi all, 130bhp phase 2 wga 2005 galaxy here, and I'm at my wits end. We've had the car from almost new (6 months old with 10k on the clock when we bought it), its got 130,000 on the odo now and being a pain.

 

The car has been making a knocking sensation through the steering for well over a year now, its had 3 sets of tyres, new halfshafts, a new steering rack and pump, new balljoints in the suspension etc. Its been into the main dealer 3 times at vast cost, and some small independants have looked over it, and Ive even been under it on a friends ramp myself while he went over all the bushes looking for the issue and all he could find to comment on is the diff feels stiff, when you rotate one wheel the opposing wheel doesn't contra rotate, it rolls round the same direction , pointing to stiffness or stiction in the planetary gears in the diff to me and him but its possible there is a viscous coupling element inside there, we dont know for sure not having a second one nearby to confirm against. Plus a diff problem should manifest itself only when cornering as otherwise its not moving internally I would think? We checked the roll restrictor and all seems fine with that too.

 

Symptoms are it has a slight vibration through the wheel that doesnt occur at any set speed and generally doesnt feel "right", and at very low speeds (20-30mph)  it feels much much worse, the sensation at low speed when driving straight or turning is exactly to me like the inner joints on the half shafts are gone. That wobble through the drivers chair/footwell area. Its worse in wet weather too for some reason.

When Ive pushed the car really hard in corners testing it myself alone it goes into bush squidgy feeling understeer mid corner, but that might be the way it should be, it wasn't family estate cornering speeds which trigger it, at normal cornering speeds its fine, well behaved in fact. Its much worse when my wife is driving (and its her car), which I attribute to a different style of driving.

 

Last month it went the ford main dealers for their latest comedy attempt at fixing with a note we'd found the diff stiff and could they confirm it was ok.

They said the diff had a viscous coupling element which caused this stiffness and it was a non issue, fair enough theyre the experts and thats why we took it for confirmation. They said it was a ball joint and we needed front discs and pads so it was booked in for two appointments, first they changed the ball joint and when we picked it up, it was pishing power steering fluid from the end of the rack all over the road, my wife rang me from a car park up the road terrified at the lines of oil everywhere she had been, and I had to drive out and driven it back the dealership and they denied touching it and quoted £2k for a new rack and pump citing that as the culprit all along and refused to guarantee that would fix it and to be frank, their whole attitude was downright rude and unprofessional and left my wife in tears. So I changed the rack and pump for exchange units myself for considerably less.

Ive checked the front discs also and runout is 0.01mm and thickness 23.76mm (done with dti and micrometer, hobby is building full on turbo nitrous dragbikes) and the pads have about 10mm of friction material left on them so think they were wrong on that score too.

 

So theres the background, now to the ideas as to where to go next.

 

The usual things we havent changed so far and as far as I know, they've never been changed:-

 

The pendulum bushes

How do you test these? we checked for excess movement by prying them round and they felt ok, is it worth changing these pre-emptively just to be sure? Is there any hard numbers about how much they should move with x kg of force applied to them or something we can quantify how knackered they are?

 

The Lower control arms

Again as above, the rear bush as it attaches the chassis has a bit of compliance but nothing excessive looking.

 

The Bearing/bush at the top of the macpherson strut.

I don't know how to feel for excess in this, as I read it should have play in when the weight is off the floor, is it worth changing them anyway just to be sure? Also it looks like is a fairly regular flat area on the outwards facing part of the strut where the brake support is, is this a facet of the manufacturing process?

 

Track rod ends feel ok, and everyone else in the chain has checked them and passed them too.

 

Its also been for geometric checking, as I had it in my head the castor was wrong, and it was causing that tea trolley feeling to the wheels, but the report just came back with "ok" written on it. Not even which angles they had checked, so I guess they could have checked toe in and called it good.

 

What else have I missed? need to knock this one on the head regardless or its new car time and the poverty and lack of money to spend on my hobby that will bring...

 

 

[gregers]

WOW you seem to have been to hell n back,that sucks about the dealer.

you obviously know your stuff,

im clutching at straws but you havnt mentioned anything about tyres???

and whether you have rotated them?

 

im sure someone with more technical knowledge may be able to give you some more advice,

good luck and keep us informed.

[seatkid]

I take it youve changed the arb drop links?

 

What on earth is a phase 2 wga?

[viperclive]

It sounds like a problem I had with vibration coming up the steering especially on heavy breaking, it turned out to be inner track rods, I also changed the rack myself but put on my old inner rods, changed both, worked a treat.

[MrF]

Gregers, its had 3 different sets of tyres. We've had some of the agillis's fail (split apart at the root of the tread) and egg, so we've switched to a alternative as we have read of others suffering the same issues, I think its a goodyear but definitely a commercial tyre but Id have to check to tell you the model and my wife has just drove off her mum's in it :) Yesterday I swapped the rear's with the front's to see if the problem did switch ends and its exactly the same. It could be this long term vibration problem has caused the agillis C's to fail early too so not rubbishing them, we had no issues with them till the past couple of sets.

 

Seatkid WGA is the type code of the model we use when ordering spares, its a 2005 galaxy in a lhd but last of the ones before the new model came along. I havent changed the drop links, as I'm only just at the changing everything until it goes away stage having lost what little confidence I had in the main dealers. Thats what I meant by pendulum links in my original post, sorry if Ive used the wrong term for them. I will order a set and just replace them as a matter of course if theres no way to reliably test their condition.

 

Clive we reused the outer (stub axle end) track rods on the new rack, but the inner (rack end) came with the exchange rack so theyre new. My friend is quite handy with vans and heavier stuff besides cars and he pronounced the outer track rod -> upright ball joints good after testing them with a large bar both loaded and unloaded. It doesnt do it hard on the brakes either, only when very very gently touching the pedal. Its like something harmonic in nature thats set up then amplifies, but when you get stuck into the accelerator or brakes it settles down and behaves itself. It also explains why my wife suffers with it much more severely as we have different driving styles, maybe even the wet weather difference, since you naturally are being more gentle with the controls.

 

Has anyone got any ideas on the diff being stiff?, ie if I jack up the front wheels, and turn the left wheel with the steering straight ahead, should I be expecting the right wheel to contra rotate, or both to rotate in the same direction? that could be a seperate problem but I'd still like to get forearmed if possible.

 

Another thing I forgot to mention, a couple of years back it suffered damage to one of the front wings (a cow sat on it when in a country lane and creased the wing in) and it was repaired by our unfriendly main dealer, could this have knocked the strut tower out of alignment or maybe damaged the bearing in the strut top area?

 

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

[viperclive]

The flats on struts are standard, I recently replaced both struts top bearings n rubber bung,, when putting on top hats I removed play on struts by cutting thick rubber washer and putting that on top of each strut top before tightening down, now I can go over our sleeping policemen without the double clunk, also uprated rear bushes in wishbone with solid rubber ones. after all that I still had a small knocking noise, which turned out to be anti roll bar bushes, they had passed inspection at the mot but had gone hard, as to drop links don't buy cheap as they last two mins, hope you sort it.

[seatkid]

Gregers, its had 3 different sets of tyres. We've had some of the agillis's fail (split apart at the root of the tread) and egg, so we've switched to a alternative as we have read of others suffering the same issues, I think its a goodyear but definitely a commercial tyre but Id have to check to tell you the model and my wife has just drove off her mum's in it :) Yesterday I swapped the rear's with the front's to see if the problem did switch ends and its exactly the same. It could be this long term vibration problem has caused the agillis C's to fail early too so not rubbishing them, we had no issues with them till the past couple of sets.

 

People who have problems with tyres are invariably driving on standard tyres (load index 94 or less) and not the reinforced tyres that are required for the Shalaxy. The load rating should be 96 minimum IIRC.

[MrF]

People who have problems with tyres are invariably driving on standard tyres (load index 94 or less) and not the reinforced tyres that are required for the Shalaxy. The load rating should be 96 minimum IIRC.

I don't know about everyone else but ours have definitely been the rated C for commercial versions, although its always a battle with the tyre houses to get the right tyres fitted as they don't seem to understand it needs commercial van tyres. We've had 3 of these go bad and egg. The last one on the rear was horrifying to look at.

[seatkid]

I don't know about everyone else but ours have definitely been the rated C for commercial versions, although its always a battle with the tyre houses to get the right tyres fitted as they don't seem to understand it needs commercial van tyres. We've had 3 of these go bad and egg. The last one on the rear was horrifying to look at.

 

Once again I have no idea what you are going on about. The Galaxy requires REINFORCED tyres. These will carry a higher load rating and be marked with XL or RF.

 

Sizes for yours are 195/60 R16 99H, 205/55 R16 98H, 215/55 R16 95H, or 225/45 R17 94V

[MrF]

Once again I have no idea what you are going on about. The Galaxy requires REINFORCED tyres. These will carry a higher load rating and be marked with XL or RF.

 

Sizes for yours are 195/60 R16 99H, 205/55 R16 98H, 215/55 R16 95H, or 225/45 R17 94V

They are commercially rated tyres, the C denotes commercial vehicle, ie a van fitment and the higher load index that the galaxy requires.

 

They are the 195/60 R16 99H you quote. I have the old partner to the failed agilis on the spare still as we change tyres in axle pairs and it and all the tyres currently fitted (two agilis, and the agilis replacement goodyear marathons) are the same dimensions and also 99H rated. I've had 3 carcasses go bad, and they have all been the correct load rated and dimensioned tyres.

So I suggest your statement that "all" people who have had carcass issues have been using the wrong tyres is incorrect.

[seatkid]

If what you say is correct, then I am surprised you've had problems.

 

However, (please dont take this wrong), Michelin UK website say the only Agilis tyres in the size you claim are the Agilis Alpin Winter tyre and they are T speed rated. All other Agilis tyres (non winter) are higher profile and all Agilis tyres are low speed (max T rated).

 

A very strange choice of tyre for a Galaxy.

[MrF]

Here you go, the last good set of agilis on the car still. I don't select them, I usually get a phone call from my wife asking me if its ok to have the tyres fitted the tyre specialists recommend, and as long as theyre not remould or indian nylon specials and a reputable make with the correct weight load rating, I agree.

 

 

 

 

Ive noticed the problem seems to change in sensation if I swap the front wheels with the rears. Ive measured runout and both the new rears seem to have a flat spot about 5mm in variance axially (ie with reference to the centre line of the axle) which seems to coincide exactly with where they have clipped the wheel weights on, and one of the fronts is the same, the other is perfect but doesn't have any weights fitted (I presume it was in balance without). Are these wheels designed to be used with steel clip on wheel weights or bonded ones? It seems to me like the tyres aren't sitting in the bead properly because the weight clip is interfering with the bead going home for that part, but I don't know the actual tolerance expected for runout in the diameter. If it was my race bike, I'd throw the tyres back at the supplier in disgust for fear of tyre shake, but its my wife's shopping car where I lack any form of experience at what is correct. A proper mechanic I am not.

 

Another thing I have noticed, is its worse when we have more people inside the car, and going up a incline it gets worse too. We were on the motorway at 70 testing it and it started to shake going up a hill, then stopped at the peak and went ultra smooth for the descent. So I think I am going to have a poke round with the rear axle locating bushes, and maybe look into if those tyres are seated on the rims properly. Ill ask my friend to strip it of wheel weights on his tyre machine and we'll see if the runout disappears.

 

[bigdave982]

Wot pressures are you running in them ?

[xavier]

Any local good independant VW garages you can take it in to? I'm also not sure about those tyres. Michelin suggests the primacy 3 for the galaxy though it means a change of width to 215 :

 

http://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/car-tyres#type=type_2&brand=ford&range=galaxy&model=galaxy&engine=1.9%20tdi%20150&year=1995%20-%202006&selectedFitment=215-55-16-97-H&retainFitment=215-55-16-97-H&selectedIndexOption=0&noResults=true&modifyResults=true&fronthighwaypressure=43.51&frontnormalpressure=40.61&rearhighwaypressure=49.31&rearnormalpressure=37.71&selectedFilter=summer

 

No idea if the link will work. Might be an idea to look on gumtree for a set of 4 galaxy wheels with tyres, you could swap 'em just to check?

[xavier]

I also meant to ask, has the DMF / clutch ever been changed?

[MrF]

no dmf is original, we've been lucky and only done routine service work to it until relatively recently. It doesn't seem to have the vibration from the engine when driving I'd expect from a bad dmf, though that will probably fail now I've said its ok. I am still unsure about the health of the diff, and we've not changed the inner stub axle and spline that everyone else seems to have had problems with also. A independant did the halfshaft changes when it started to play up and I asked him to check everything in there was fine while he was fitting as I was aware there was a wear issue with the splines, and he said he checked it while doing the job and all was fine. I should have done the job myself and been certain, but the whole idea of this car was buy something and have it fixed by the professionals while I got on with stuff I wanted to do. Earlier this year I ended up having to set up a laptop with vagcom and diagnose the crankshaft sensor going bad after the dealership kept saying there was no issues with it but maybe we needed a new ecu at £££££, so that slippery slope has already started.

 

I checked the runout on the rims in situ with a pointer, and theyre ok, so its tyre bead seating issues or the tyres themselves. Tyre pressures are what are marked on the door jamb on my decent gauge, it behaves itself a tiny bit better with the heavily loaded pressure settings though. I think its the balance weight clip stopping the bead going home properly as mentioned, but I can't believe everyone else isnt having the same issue, as tyre houses the world over must be using similar clip on weights on the original steel wheels they came with.

 

We were running the agilis's but now have a pair of goodyear commercial marathons as a tyre house recommended alternative. They showed it me in their book as the fitment for a galaxy. We can't move to wider tyres Im afraid, as the car is registered in france and on the log book (cartre grise) the tyre size is specifically defined as the 195's. And its a mot fail here to have the wrong size tyres than what is exactly specified there. It cost me £400 for four tyres on my merc van when I first re-registered it here as it had 215's instead of 205's on and they made me change them.

 

I broke down and asked my wife if she wanted to trade it in against something newer, but she doesn't, she just wants me to fix this one. Its off on a trip to wales from central france in a couple of days so it'd be nice if it was driving ok or at least we had confidence it was going to make the trip.

[MrF]

Update, tyre house who supplied the marathons took a look yesterday under their guarantee terms, and confirmed the tyres do indeed have 5mm radial runout at one spot. They say they dismounted the tyres and the bead area of the wheel is the culprit not the weights but its co-incidence the weights were needed there because the rim distortion has made that the spot which requires balancing, the two wheels they checked both are twisted slightly enough to cause this runout and the distance to the tyre tread outer amplifies the issue, and they say the culprit for the vibration. I went back and they were finally re-balancing them on the machine, and it was obvious visually they were running out badly, I asked them why they hadn't pointed it out as a courtesy and they told me they were only paid to fit and balance tyres. True but a very modern attitude...

 

I'm off out to get a second opinion on if its the tyres or wheels as the inspection happened a bit cloak and dagger for my liking, so I'm getting my friend to dismount a tyre and we'll check the rim on a wheel jig, and if it is the rims, we're off to buy a set of specific galaxy fitment alloy wheels to replace the steel rims.

My theory now is the wheels have been like this all along, and caused all the previously fixed components to go bad over time. Lets hope its finally correct.

[MrF]

One rear tyre 5mm of runout radially, the other with 1.5mm or so. We've remounted the new tyre on the spare's rim and got that down to 2mm, and most of the horribleness has gone from the handling. My friend thinks there's maybe something wrong inside the hub making the hub eccentric to the stub axle too, but that's a investigation we'll make another day as its too close to the big trip to be spreading it all over the garage floor.

 

Drove it unbalanced as its booked in the am to yet another garage for balancing and at 130kph/80mph on the autoroute its fairly smooth feeling compared to how it was. We also noticed the rear tyres are wearing more on the inside than the out, pointing to something wrong geometrically out back so when it comes back from the uk, it'll be up on the ramp yet again for rear axle bush inspections.

 

What a mess, lost any little faith I had left in the dealership, and the tyre houses its been to.